“In my experience, over half the folks in our TLM community do not use a missal. And if you haven’t got a missal, you won’t have any idea how different the prayers are between the two; and if Scripture is read, well, it’s still the same Scripture (so they think). If priests start saying the Novus Ordo ad orientem, use some Latin, chant, and incense, are all the TLMers going to notice how different it still is?”
I’m going to be vulnerable here at the risk of putting myself out here as someone who may be regarded as being woefully ignorant or “not caring enough,” but I just wanted to say that the quote above may be pointing to someone like me! 🫣 I feel a bit embarrassed saying that. I’ve been Catholic for 3 going on 4 years, coming from 20 years in the Protestant world I read my way into the church, and from a distance I was immediately drawn to the beauty of the Latin mass (though I do have to say that I attend a N.O mass and my very first mass ever was the N.O and I was SO struck by the beauty of the prayers. I know TLM’ers might not understand that, but I had no idea that Catholics prayed like that. And of course it was in English, so I could understand it). I have no educational background that gave me exposure to Latin at all. I only have a high school diploma and worked as a hair stylist. I’m not an academic though I love to read theology. But the BEAUTY of the TLM (what, yes, is the “smells and bells”) made me so hungry for something deeper and more. Mystery. Drama. Beauty. Essentially, God. But worship of God in a way so, so foreign to my experience up to that point, even though I have a very intimate relationship with Jesus. But when I read the articles here on this Substack I have to admit some of it goes academically beyond what I even have time to delve into as a busy wife, mom, and business owner. I feel ashamed to admit to the readers of this Substack that it probably *would* be “good enough” for me if we did just give Latin “pride of place,” introduced chant and sacred music, incense, altar rails, candles, a priest facing ad orientum, etc. It would be “good enough” because we don’t even have anything CLOSE to that at our parish! It sounds absolutely amazing to just have that! 😂 I continue to read and study about the TLM (your books are very helpful), but again at the risk of sounding dumb, sometimes I feel like I’m just not smart or intellectual enough to fight for the TLM, and I would be satisfied with what TLM’ers would probably consider wrong, incomplete and insubstantial. Do you have any advice for someone like me who feels very “called out” by the concern of the man quoted above? Am I doing something wrong by just longing for SOMETHING more? Thank you!
No, of course it's better to have these beautiful and traditional elements than not to have them.
But the problem is, there is so much more to the liturgy than these things. They are adornments and perfections, but there is still the substance of it.
And that is where, when you read my books, you find out "Oh my, it's not just about reverence or pretty things."
So, again, nothing wrong with what you're saying. The reason the TLM calls out to people is that it is a more substantial, more durable, more mystical liturgy - and that has to do with its very bones.
Yes I can definitely see that and sense that when I’m reading about it! It’s hard to explain it all to the average parishioner at my parish though, because I’m still learning myself. But I’m considering starting a book group going through your new book Turned Around sometime next year. I’ve been told that it would be too controversial right now. I still don’t understand why Catholics seem to be afraid of even LEARNING about the TLM 🤣 but I think it would be a great discussion!
"Turned Around" is controversial - but for the right reasons. It explains why centuries upon centuries of Catholics worshiped the way they did, and no one thought to say it was flawed.
As usual, a post crammed full with things to read. Sigh. How to find the time. Regarding the unjust actions in Knoxville, Detroit, Charlotte, etc., I think the best response to that (and many other injustices for the past 55 years) are devastatingly summed up in the statement released by the Transalpine Redemptorists, linked over at Rorate (https://papastronsay.blogspot.com/2025/10/an-open-letter-to-catholic-bishops.html). How telling that a traditional community attempting to live in obedience to the structures of the Church has, after 17 years, had to admit that Tradition and the Modern Church (so-called) cannot comfortably co-exist. (I write this as one attached to Mass with the SSPX but also as a supporter of the Transalpine Redemptorists.) Re. the Crisis article by Kevin Wells: I have not yet read it (it's in the queue for today), but your description of it made me think immediately of the essential book by Michael Rose, Goodbye, Good Men, which I just finished. Third: The Cristeros book was just too good to resist and I had to order it. I have been praying about the possibility of going on a pilgrimage/tour (in affiliation with SSPX) next year to Mexico for the 100th anniversary of the Cristero war. Finally: I didn't see a link or citation for the section on tongues: What is the article by Blosser and Sullivan and where is Philip Campbell's piece on the same? Thanks for the multiple labors, Dr. K.!
I know many Catholics who believe they are praying in an unknown-to-them human language when they are praying in tongues, so I don’t see how this calls the whole charismatic movement into question.
At Pentecost they spoke many languages, existing languages. They did not babble jibberish. That is a Protestant heretical practice. The Church grew because of Pentecost because thousands were converted by hearing the Gospel in their own language. It was a miraculous event no longer needed.
Like the apostles at Pentecost, many Catholics pray in existing languages that are unknown to them. Sometimes there are people present who do speak the language and can understand. This is well-known.
There are probably some people who are faking this spiritual gift and speaking gibberish, just like there are people who are faking gifts of healing and other miracles. This does not negate authentic occurrences of the gift.
“In my experience, over half the folks in our TLM community do not use a missal. And if you haven’t got a missal, you won’t have any idea how different the prayers are between the two; and if Scripture is read, well, it’s still the same Scripture (so they think). If priests start saying the Novus Ordo ad orientem, use some Latin, chant, and incense, are all the TLMers going to notice how different it still is?”
I’m going to be vulnerable here at the risk of putting myself out here as someone who may be regarded as being woefully ignorant or “not caring enough,” but I just wanted to say that the quote above may be pointing to someone like me! 🫣 I feel a bit embarrassed saying that. I’ve been Catholic for 3 going on 4 years, coming from 20 years in the Protestant world I read my way into the church, and from a distance I was immediately drawn to the beauty of the Latin mass (though I do have to say that I attend a N.O mass and my very first mass ever was the N.O and I was SO struck by the beauty of the prayers. I know TLM’ers might not understand that, but I had no idea that Catholics prayed like that. And of course it was in English, so I could understand it). I have no educational background that gave me exposure to Latin at all. I only have a high school diploma and worked as a hair stylist. I’m not an academic though I love to read theology. But the BEAUTY of the TLM (what, yes, is the “smells and bells”) made me so hungry for something deeper and more. Mystery. Drama. Beauty. Essentially, God. But worship of God in a way so, so foreign to my experience up to that point, even though I have a very intimate relationship with Jesus. But when I read the articles here on this Substack I have to admit some of it goes academically beyond what I even have time to delve into as a busy wife, mom, and business owner. I feel ashamed to admit to the readers of this Substack that it probably *would* be “good enough” for me if we did just give Latin “pride of place,” introduced chant and sacred music, incense, altar rails, candles, a priest facing ad orientum, etc. It would be “good enough” because we don’t even have anything CLOSE to that at our parish! It sounds absolutely amazing to just have that! 😂 I continue to read and study about the TLM (your books are very helpful), but again at the risk of sounding dumb, sometimes I feel like I’m just not smart or intellectual enough to fight for the TLM, and I would be satisfied with what TLM’ers would probably consider wrong, incomplete and insubstantial. Do you have any advice for someone like me who feels very “called out” by the concern of the man quoted above? Am I doing something wrong by just longing for SOMETHING more? Thank you!
No, of course it's better to have these beautiful and traditional elements than not to have them.
But the problem is, there is so much more to the liturgy than these things. They are adornments and perfections, but there is still the substance of it.
And that is where, when you read my books, you find out "Oh my, it's not just about reverence or pretty things."
So, again, nothing wrong with what you're saying. The reason the TLM calls out to people is that it is a more substantial, more durable, more mystical liturgy - and that has to do with its very bones.
Yes I can definitely see that and sense that when I’m reading about it! It’s hard to explain it all to the average parishioner at my parish though, because I’m still learning myself. But I’m considering starting a book group going through your new book Turned Around sometime next year. I’ve been told that it would be too controversial right now. I still don’t understand why Catholics seem to be afraid of even LEARNING about the TLM 🤣 but I think it would be a great discussion!
"Turned Around" is controversial - but for the right reasons. It explains why centuries upon centuries of Catholics worshiped the way they did, and no one thought to say it was flawed.
PONTIFICAL
LATIN MASS
- WITH -
GERHARD
CARDINAL MÜLLER
WITH A SPECIAL PROGRAM OF SACRED MUSIC,
INCLUDING THE 'MASS IN A MINOR' (ANTONIO LOTTI
'BEATUS VIR QUI NON ABIIT' (HIERONYMUS PRAETORIUS)
'EGO SUM PANIS VIVUS' (JACOB HANDL)
ALL ARE WELCOME TO EXPERIENCE
THE BEAUTY OF THE TRADITIONAL
LATIN RITE, AND TO MEET ONE OF THE CHURCH'S MOST DISTINGUISHED
THEOLOGIANS AND LEADERS.
SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 2 5:00 PM
AT OUR LADY OF LOURDES CHURCH
6301 WOODBINE AVE.
PHILADELPHIA, PA 19151
REV. MATTHEW PHELAN, O DE M., PASTOR
A RECEPTION SPONSORED BY THE
INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR CULTURE
WILL FOLLOW NEARBY AT IVY HALL.
FOR MORE INFO AND TO RSVP, SCAN THE QR CODE BELOW:
IN COLLABORATION WITH
URANDaS
INscIcate
for Sacred Citurgy & Music
WWW.DURANDUSINSTITUTE.ORG
It might be a good idea for you to study the Vatican II Constitutution on the Sacred Liturgy (Sacrosanctum Concilium) in a good translation.
Thanks! I’ve read it multiple times actually 😊 I have the Word on Fire Collection of V2 documents.
As usual, a post crammed full with things to read. Sigh. How to find the time. Regarding the unjust actions in Knoxville, Detroit, Charlotte, etc., I think the best response to that (and many other injustices for the past 55 years) are devastatingly summed up in the statement released by the Transalpine Redemptorists, linked over at Rorate (https://papastronsay.blogspot.com/2025/10/an-open-letter-to-catholic-bishops.html). How telling that a traditional community attempting to live in obedience to the structures of the Church has, after 17 years, had to admit that Tradition and the Modern Church (so-called) cannot comfortably co-exist. (I write this as one attached to Mass with the SSPX but also as a supporter of the Transalpine Redemptorists.) Re. the Crisis article by Kevin Wells: I have not yet read it (it's in the queue for today), but your description of it made me think immediately of the essential book by Michael Rose, Goodbye, Good Men, which I just finished. Third: The Cristeros book was just too good to resist and I had to order it. I have been praying about the possibility of going on a pilgrimage/tour (in affiliation with SSPX) next year to Mexico for the 100th anniversary of the Cristero war. Finally: I didn't see a link or citation for the section on tongues: What is the article by Blosser and Sullivan and where is Philip Campbell's piece on the same? Thanks for the multiple labors, Dr. K.!
I know many Catholics who believe they are praying in an unknown-to-them human language when they are praying in tongues, so I don’t see how this calls the whole charismatic movement into question.
At Pentecost they spoke many languages, existing languages. They did not babble jibberish. That is a Protestant heretical practice. The Church grew because of Pentecost because thousands were converted by hearing the Gospel in their own language. It was a miraculous event no longer needed.
Like the apostles at Pentecost, many Catholics pray in existing languages that are unknown to them. Sometimes there are people present who do speak the language and can understand. This is well-known.
There are probably some people who are faking this spiritual gift and speaking gibberish, just like there are people who are faking gifts of healing and other miracles. This does not negate authentic occurrences of the gift.
Thank you for the writeup. I pray that Pelican can provide a comment section in the near future.
I wonder what the English martyrs would do about the upcoming state visit next week.
There will be a community space for conversation between readers and writers.