The past week has been buzzing with rumors to the effect that Leo XIV has instructed the Dicastery for Divine Worship to issue “extensions” on the TLM whenever bishops ask for them.
Some readers around the internet have raised the objection that I have not proved my claims about homosexuality, and that, since the claims are enormous in scope and seriousness, I have a responsibility to do so.
My first comment is that this is an essay, not a research paper; but it is indeed based on a lot of things I've read and heard over the years, as well as the evidence of my senses when I look at and listen to the prelates who call the shots.
Now, some say we should not openly proclaim the problems because we are only giving our enemies ammunition to use against us ("look how divisive the traditionalists are!").
However, no matter what we do, opponents of the TLM will say we're divisive; that's their go-to trick.
What would you expect? We are precisely "divisive" in that we want only truth, only tradition, and only sanctity, not lies, errors, novelties, and vices, and this cannot but be like a sword of division. Yet that is because, more fundamentally, we seek to adhere to Our Lord, His entire revelation, and His entire law. As St. Thomas says, love of something implies hatred of its contrary. Our opponents love what they are doing, and so they hate what we are doing.
It has never helped the Catholic Church to ignore evils or to sweep them under the carpet. The time has come for openly and boldly proclaiming the truth.
Dr. Kwasniewski, hi I’m new here. I found you via Matt Fradd and I read (and loved!) your new book Turned Around. I am a faithful Catholic convert who attends a N.O. mass. Ever since I started following you I have appreciated learning the history of the TLM, sacred music, etc. But, I’ve noticed that every single article’s comment section is full of comments degrading people like me, questioning our faithfulness, orthodoxy, holiness, and (see above the comment by David McPike) even our virtue (if I’m understanding him correctly). I am a leader at our parish OCIA and regularly walk next to new Catholics (many, many lives are being transformed in our N.O parish), and I disciple Catholics new to their faith and relationship with God. Jesus, in His great mercy and love, literally saved me from an abusive upbringing and resulting trauma, and kept me from wanting to end my life when I was 20. He is the love of my life. I honestly cannot believe how short-sighted and rude people seem to be on your Substack about people like me who attend the N.O mass. I really want to like the TLM, but I am so absolutely astounded by the continued comments I keep seeing on posts, even calling into question whether or not people who go to an N.O mass are even serious about the the holy sacrifice of the mass, that I’ve pretty much lost interest in even going to the TLM (there is a TLM mass 45 minutes from me, and we have attended once before). People have NO idea (it seems) what God is doing in peoples lives who are coming into the Church, even YES at a N.O parish. I witness this beauty and grace daily. It seriously saddens me what I’m seeing on here. I subscribed to Pelican + for a year, but if these are the kind of people I would meet at the TLM (silently judging me as “not virtuous” because I apparently don’t truly understand the liturgy unlike TLM-goers who, apparently, REALLY do…at least that’s what it consistently sounds like here), then who cares? I’ve been taking all of your claims and perspectives seriously, and I truly pray that God opens people’s eyes who hold these positions on your Substack to see that He is alive and well at the N.O mass. Praise be to Him forever.
I know what you're talking about. I make it a strict point of discipline and honor to talk about ideas or views rather than people and their motives, unless there is too much evidence to deny (e.g. Fr. James Martin SJ). However, I also try to adopt a rather free-speech approach to comments, only very rarely deleting things if they are beyond the pale. That certainly doesn't mean I agree with all of them, or that they should be taken as representative of everyone who reads T&S. On the contrary: I have Novus Ordo readers, and beyond that, Protestant and Orthodox ones too.
Please know that you are welcome here, and that the work you're doing in your parish is important. God is at work everywhere. It is for us to cooperate with His graces and become His instruments of salvation.
"I make it a strict point of discipline and honor to talk about ideas or views rather than people and their motives" -- unlike Beth, who it would seem called me rude and short-sighted and ignored the truth of my ideas/views. Right, Peter? You know what I'm talking about, brother?
I would never take the comment section of any blog, even one as nice as this one, as indicative of a whole religious community. I regularly attend both rites and am in complete agreement with Dr. K on their relative positions as he articulated to Matt Fradd. Most of the people I meet at the TLM would be happy to meet with you and help initiate you into the wonderful riches of the liturgical tradition without denigrating your faith or intelligence. I encourage you to come try it! Of course, online you are likely to encounter a lot more extreme bitterness and heightened emotions.
"I would never take the comment section of any blog, even one as nice as this one, as indicative of a whole religious community." Certainly some common sense there. Hopefully you would also never take your kneejerk negative reaction to particular comments in a comment section of any blog as entirely and sufficiently indicative of the truth expressed in that comment. Hopefully you would, as a strict matter of discipline and honor, try to substantiate your negative kneejerk reaction as having an objective foundation in the truth, rather than constituting a potentially sinful rash judgment of a brother in Christ.
As a former Protestant who was deeply scandalized by some overzealous trads back in the day, it breaks my heart when fellow converts and other Catholics have similar experiences that turn them off of the traditionalist movement. Lord, save us from ourselves.
If it helps to "peek behind the curtain" of TLM communities a little, I can attest to the fact that judgmental liturgy snobs are the exception at Mass, not the norm. In fact, in both of my local TLM communities, there's a large percentage of regulars and semi-regulars who attend non-TLM Masses on a recurring basis (for a variety of reasons). Even SSPX priests I've encountered, the most hardline TLM advocates out there, are the first to affirm that different Catholics understand the crisis in the Church in different ways, i.e. we live in confusing times, and so they don't presumptively judge individual souls who choose to attend the NO.
It might seem counter-intuitive to many, yet the trads I know are genuinely some of the most chill people when it comes to respecting others' goodwill in the liturgical realm. All sincere Catholics, trad and non-trad alike, are just trying to save their souls the best way they know how. Just like we trads don't like being pre-judged as "rigid" or "schismatic" based on where we go to Mass, most of us avoid jumping to unfair assumptions about other people's piety or holiness. (After all, the overwhelming majority of us began our faith journeys in NO parishes too.)
God bless your efforts to bring people into the Catholic faith, and I'll offer prayers that He would lead all of us (including curmudgeonly trads online) into greater charity and holiness.
Here is what I think the problem is: we (Trads) understand you, but you (NOs) do not understand us. What I mean is that 99% of Trads came from the NO, but 99% of NOs have never even been to a Trad Mass (and many are not even aware of the option.) Disclaimer-I use these numbers to generalize and make a point. I don’t know what the actual percentages are. Regardless, we understand what we’ve left, but you do not even know what you are missing. Here is my advice: First, do some research on the infiltration of the Church and learn about what happened at Vatican II-who was involved. Then learn how the Novus Ordo came to be. This will will not take long - it’s all out there on the Internet. Find the nearest Trad-only parish (no Novus Ordo Missae) and go there. Go to a High Mass and Low Mass. Use a provided missal. Look around, observe, open your heart and your mind, humble yourself, and most importantly, realize that none of what you are witnessing is about you personally. Then, I think you will begin to understand our position,and you won’t be so offended by our comments, and maybe, just maybe, you can help others who are. It requires effort to understand the Trad side, the problem is that most don’t want to make that effort. Until there is equal understanding on both sides, this divide will continue. God bless.
I am Brazilian; I am 55 years old. I was born in the city of Recife, capital of the Federative Unit called Pernambuco. This place is full of Catholic monuments. Dom Pedro II filled this place with Catholic monuments. However, when I was born, darkness was already dominating everything; I was literally born into social darkness. This darkness was created by three groups: 1) the political heirs of the republican movement that overthrew our monarchy; 2) a political movement that began in the 1960s; and 3) the revolutionary clergy of Recife, who rebelled against the Tradition of the Church. Continuing... as a newborn, I received Catholic baptism. But my family lacked structure, something very common where I was born: here, thousands and thousands of women are single mothers; they usually have several children by several men. Continuing... in adolescence, I became Protestant... in adulthood, with the internet, I returned to the Holy Church. After some years I discovered the DIVISION: then I also discovered the existence of Tradition, and of the Traditional Latin Mass.
Going back to the beginning: in the city of Recife, where I was born, since the 1970s there has been an INFESTATION of new Protestant sects (this explains why I became Protestant). Thousands and thousands of Catholics abandoned the Catholic Church. In conclusion: today, in my country, socialism is reigning; false clothes multiply; Novus Ordo masses transform day by day; material poverty is terrible; morality is pure decadence. How did darkness grow like this? Here's what I understand: the clergy abandoned the people, and the Protestants welcomed them with lies and sentimentality. The most visible vices reached the upper social classes, and now, at this moment, these upper social classes have absorbed the cultural garbage, despised justice, and bought off the corrupt and decadent clergy. Worse: in the past, the poor classes learned some virtues from the high society that still honored the Catholic Church. Today, the lower social classes want to imitate the extreme ties of the upper social classes. Click on the link and you will get a glimpse of the social misery that dominates a Brazilian state that was once Catholic. (try "walking" through these streets).
Dido JS
Dido JS
agora mesmo
Perfeito. Vou escrever em português. Por favor traduza. Eu sou brasileiro; tenho 55 anos. Eu nasci na cidade de Recife, capital da Unidade Federativa chamada Pernambuco. Este lugar está cheio de monumentos católicos. Dom Pedro II encheu esse lugar de monumentos católicos. Todavia, quando eu nasci a escuridão já estava dominando tudo; eu nasci LITERALMENTE na escuridão social. Esta escuridão foi criada por três grupos: 1) os herdeiros políticos do movimento republicano que derrubou a nossa monarquia. 2) uma política que iniciou nos anos 60; e 3) O clero revolucionário de Recife, que se rebelou contra a Tradição da Igreja. Continuando... como recém nascido, eu recebi o batismo católico. Mas, minha família era sem estrutura, coisa muito comum onde eu nasci: aqui, milhares e milhares de mulheres são mães solteiras; elas geralmente têm vários filhos de vários homens. Continuando... na adolescência, eu me tornei protestante... na vida adulta, com a internet, voltei para a Santa Igreja. Depois de alguns anos eu descobri a DIVISÃO: então eu também descobri a existência da Tradição, e da Missa de Sempre.
Voltando ao início: na cidade de Recife, onde eu nasci, desde os anos de 1970 houve uma INFESTAÇÃO de novas seitas protestantes (isso explica porque eu me tornei protestantes). Milhares e milhares de católicos abandonaram a Igreja Católica. Concluindo: hoje, no meu país, o socialismo está reinando; falsas roupas se multiplicam; as missas Novus Ordo se transformam dia após dia; a pobreza material é tenebrosa; a moralidade é pura decadência. Como a escuridão cresceu assim? Aqui está o que eu compreendo: o clero abandonou o povo, e os protestantes o acolheram com mentiras e sentimentalismo. Os vícios mais visíveis chegaram às altas classes sociais, e agora, neste momento, estas altas classes sociais absorveram o lixo cultural, desprezaram a justiça, compraram o clero corrupto e decadente. Pior: no passado, as classes pobres aprenderam algumas virtudes com a alta sociedade que ainda honrava a Igreja Católica. Hoje, as classes sociais baixas querem imitar os vínculos extremos das classes sociais altas. Clique no link e você terá uma visão da miséria social que domina uma Unidade Federativa do Brasil que um dia foi católica. (experimente "caminhar" por essas ruas).
Of course, you'll also see some places where there's still some wealth, but that's a result of a bygone era.
The moral of my comment: the New Mass is more than a blow to the True Liturgy. The New Mass is a strong arm for chaos, for the presence of EVIL in the world. This, unfortunately, is something that Catholics of the New Mass (I mean: liberal Catholics) fail to understand. Best regards.
Perfect. I will write in Portuguese. Please translate. Eu sou brasileiro; tenho 55 anos. Eu nasci na cidade de Recife, capital da Unidade Federativa chamada Pernambuco. Este lugar está cheio de monumentos católicos. Dom Pedro II encheu esse lugar de monumentos católicos. Todavia, quando eu nasci a escuridão já estava dominando tudo; eu nasci LITERALMENTE na escuridão social. Esta escuridão foi criada por três grupos: 1) os políticos herdeiros do movimento republicano que derrubou a nossa monarquia. 2) a política que iniciou nos anos 60; e 3) O clero revolucionário de Recife, que se rebelou contra a Tradição da Igreja. Continuando... como recém nascido, eu recebi o batismo católico. Mas, minha família era sem estrutura, coisa muito comum onde eu nasci: aqui, milhares e milhares de mulheres são mães solteiras; elas geralmente têm vários filhos de vários homens. Continuando... na adolescência, eu me tornei protestante... na vida adulta, com a internet, voltei para a Santa Igreja. Depois de alguns anos eu descobri a DIVISÃO: então eu também descobri a existência da Tradição, e da Missa de Sempre.
Voltando ao início: na cidade de Recife, onde eu nasci, desde os anos de 1970 houve uma INFESTAÇÃO de novas seitas protestantes (isso explica porque eu me tornei protestantes). Milhares e milhares de católicos abandonaram a Igreja Católica. Concluindo: hoje, no meu país, o socialismo está reinando; falsas igrejas se multiplicam; as missas Novus Ordo se transformam dia após dia; a pobreza material é tenebrosa; a moralidade é pura decadência. Como a escuridão cresceu assim? Aqui está o que eu compreendo: o clero abandonou o povo, e os protestantes o acolheram com mentiras e sentimentalismo. Os vícios mais terríveis chegaram às altas classes sociais, e agora, neste momento, estas altas classes sociais absorvem o lixo cultural, desprezam a justiça, compram o clero corrupto e decadente. Pior: no passado, as classes pobres aprendiam algumas virtudes com a alta sociedade que ainda honrava Igreja Católica. Hoje, as baixas classes sociais querem imitar os vícios terríveis das altas classes sociais. Clique no link e você terá uma visão da miséria social que domina uma Unidade Federativa do Brasil que um dia foi católica. (experimente "caminhar" por essas ruas).
Claro, você também vai ver alguns lugares onde ainda há certa riqueza, mas isso é resultado de um tempo passado.
Moral do meu comentário: a Missa Nova é mais que um golpe na Verdadeira Liturgia. A missa nova é um braço forte para o caos, para a presença do MAL no mundo. Isso, infelizmente, os católicos da missa nova (digo: católicos liberais) não conseguem entender. Abraço.
Thank you for your response. I’ve been mulling over all of these responses on this thread the past few days. I’ve read a lot about the TLM (and also various Eastern Catholic liturgies and traditions) as I was making my way into the Catholic Church 4 years ago, and have learned a lot, particularly from Dr. K and appreciate his voice on this topic more than any other person I’ve read or heard. He is extremely intelligent and well-read, balanced, charitable, passionate and excited to show the world the full riches and treasures of the Roman Catholic Church. But I think after my first foray into commenting here (and brought to that point because, like I said, I was commenting on a particularly negative view about people who attend the N.O. that I keep seeing popping up over and over in the comment section), it has only just reinforced that I’m just going to focus on where God has placed me. Yes, at a N.O parish. Referring to your other comment (where you said I was in a bubble)…well, my parish has a lot of issues (as all parishes do, I don’t think a TLM is an exception since there are fallen humans present!), but I am walking next to a lot of regular ole people who are seeking hope, truth, love and their lives are being transformed by the God who loves them with an unending love. Even yesterday after mass I met an entire family who are coming into the Church at Easter, 9 children, one on the way, the dad has a brain tumor that is inoperable. They are so grateful for our parish and the love they have felt. The parents said to me yesterday that they really sense God here and that’s why they decided to go through OCIA. Every person coming into the Church at Easter this year has a complicated life story like we all do. There are many, many people who, like me, have met Jesus and have had our lives changed, and our mission is reach our city with the gospel and to bring people into His Kingdom. I love learning about all the deep riches of the Catholic Church, and will continue. But I see no real point in going to a TLM parish because I truly don’t see the need, and it may seem unbelievable to people who have commented, I know, that someone would choose to stay at an N.O parish, but I honestly don’t have the time or energy to get into a huge arguments about it. I’d rather be spending the short life God has given me discipling people in an N.O parish, (I’m even thinking about starting a schola there since Chant Academy online teaches people how to do that!) than fighting about the TLM. God bless you and I am very happy you have found a place where you experience His transforming grace. Please pray for me if you think about it! And pray for the father of this family I mentioned.
Ok, so that is your prerogative, and it’s understandable and also easier and convenient. But if you aren’t willing to make any sort of effort to try to understand where Trads are coming from (this is what you implied by saying you see no point in going to a TLM) then I don’t think you have the right to insinuate that we are bullies and say “mean or negative” things to you. Just for the record, Trads (especially those attending diocesan TLMs -myself included) have experienced plenty of disdain coming from the Novus Ordos that they share the parishes with. We just don’t complain about it perhaps because we’re used to being marginalized and treated badly by our own church (hierarchy) whereas your side has no idea what that feels like. And so just like another commenter on here, you have proved my original point - general lack of understanding (and interest) of the Trad position by the Novus Ordo side. It’s one thing to read about Tradition, but it’s quite another to experience it first hand. I think one must do both to truly get it. Take care, and God bless you on your journey.
The thing is, you claim we are on “different sides.” And that “my side” doesn’t understand “your side.” That is an extremely simplistic way of viewing anyone, let alone the Catholic Church. I would never dream of claiming that “I understand you” (or not) because of the liturgy in the Catholic Church in which you worship and receive our Holy God (which you said in your original comment. You “understand” me but I don’t understand you). Whether or not you want to believe it, we are one in Christ. We both partake of His Body and are united mystically in that. We both celebrate the Church’s feasts. We both have relationships with the Saints. We both receive the Sacraments. We both meditate deeply on Holy Scripture. I’m not persecuting you because I said I don’t think I have a need to go to the TLM.
Something that I have not said (because like I said, humans are much more complicated than “pick a side” kind of thinking) is that my parish priest, at my N.O parish, is the *same* priest who presides over the TLM at another parish 45 minutes from me. I am familiar with the TLM more than you know. But even he, a man who calls himself a “traditional priest,” would never in a million years make the statements you (or the other people criticizing me for pointing something out) have made. His perspective is much wider and deeper than a “pick your side!” position. He and I have had many talks about the TLM (and the Maronite rite. And the Byzantine rite). My original comment still stands…there are ridiculous statements made consistently in the comment section of this Substack that lump every Catholic at the N.O mass into some weird group of oppressors who are clueless (or worse). Every commenter who has been arguing about what I’ve said only highlights my point. You clearly cannot see that more and more people are interested in what Dr. K is teaching and uncovering for the average person, by being on platforms like Pints With Aquinas. But for people to excitedly sign up for this Substack, and then see the comments…it’s extremely off-putting. If people who love the TLM want to bring this treasure more fully into view, then stop being so rude to people who attend the N.O mass. It’s pretty simple. All you are doing is shooting yourself in the foot. And you can see by the couple comments from people who were reasonable and even agreed with me, I’m not the only one who has experienced this.
Beth, so you think that every criticism of you is ridiculous and just proves your point?? Hm. Interesting. Perhaps you believe this; but perhaps you are mistaken. Perhaps you are not entirely free of the hardness of heart our Lord lamented. It appears, in fact, that you are unwilling to offer any substantive constructive response to those (my!) criticisms. Why is that, Beth??
(It seems to me that there is a good deal of hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness in your claim that you'd never claim to understand someone based on which mass they went to; and your grandiose dismissal here of your interlocutor's understanding as 'extremely simplistic' strikes me as pretentious and false. You claimed to understand that TLM commenters here are rude and short-sighted based (partly) on your (mistaken!) assumption that I go to the TLM, did you not? And yet you declined to say wherein my allegedly rude and short-sighted comment was anything but entirely truthful and objectively plausible. So what's up with that? [Some particularly rich irony/hypocrisy: you say "stop being so rude to people who attend the NO mass" -- which in fact describes precisely your treatment of me, a person who attends the NO mass, does it not?? You don't have to answer now, but someday, for every idle word... (I suggest you meditate deeply on that one).])
Here's a proposition for you, Beth, which looks plausible to me. Please comment:
The fundamental attitude of "how dare you question my/our unquestionable virtue, you rude short-sighted person?" is the/a keystone moral-theological 'doctrine' of the now-reigning homo-modernist(-feminist) paradigm in the Catholic Church.
Hey Beth, may I suggest that if you're not prepared to question your own virtue, that's pretty good proof of your lack of virtue? I'm pretty sure that most people at NO masses don't even know what virtue is! BTW, you seem to assume -- but mistakenly, let me inform you -- that I don't attend a NO parish.
David, I think Catholics can have radically different experiences of NO communities depending on so many different factors (indeed, this is one of the problems: that there is almost no way of knowing what you'll find when you go through the doors of a Catholic church). I've been involved in some NO communities where a lot of people are very serious and intentional about their faith and the life of virtue; I've also seen NO communities that are scarcely distinguishable from secularized Protestants.
Sure Peter, I've been part of plenty of NO communities myself. Please don't imagine my comments are written from some kind of vacuum of no-personal-experience. And of course the complexity of individual subjective experience of anything is a given. But I dare say my point stands: those who are incapable of serious questioning regarding virtue are ipso facto seriously lacking in virtue (if not absolutely, at least in degree/maturity). Imagine you (or Beth) were a Cretan and you read Titus 1:12-13 (i.e., the God-breathed scripture)? What's your (or Beth's) likely reaction? "Well experience of Cretans can radically differ." (Or "I can't believe how short-sighted and rude Paul and the Holy Spirit are being here.") Notwithstanding your possible personal reaction(s), I think Paul and the HS still might have a serious point to make that you would do badly to simply dismiss, perhaps because in your sovereign opinion those two are just being rude.
Even if, as you say, your “whole community has been threatened, ostracised, expunged by wicked Popes, Bishops, Priests” my point is still that that doesn’t have to do with the many, many hearts of faithful, Jesus adoring, orthodox Catholics who worship in and through the holy sacrifice of the mass in a N.O parish. Yes, you need love. And the love of God is perfect mercy and grace, astringent love that purifies and lifts His children up into the Oneness of the Triune life of our Holy God. The comments I am repeatedly seeing and referring to are TLM people who deny that people who attend a N.O are virtuous (that’s literally what was spoken in the comment and the general tone in many comments), and not as enlightened or holy. I am truly sorry you have experienced spiritual abuse, and pray you come to a deep healing and peace.
Beth, have you ever seriously considered the question (the actual question): Is it possible that NO mass-goers might be relatively lacking in virtue, or particularly defective in certain virtues (as polls quite objectively seem to suggest)? Or when you come across a comment like that do you just react: Omigosh, that is so rude and I feel so judged!
(You write like a religious pragmatist: "How can you question, when lives are being transformed?" Well if someone becomes Muslim and her life is transformed, does that mean she isn't lacking in any virtues?? What is your understanding of and criteria for assessing virtue?? Are you really so certain they're adequate?)
FWIW, I feel like (the evidence shows) you're more the latter, i.e., not truth-, but feeling-oriented. Which would indeed imply, in my view, that you are less virtuous than you could/should be. If indeed I have spoken wrongly, by all means, testify to the wrong. If you just don't like what I've said, notwithstanding the question of truth, then what do you think that says about you and your virtue? What, in all seriousness, is your best moral theological analysis here??
“Even if, as you say, your “whole community has been threatened, ostracised, expunged by wicked Popes, Bishops, Priests” my point is still that that doesn’t have to do with the many, many hearts of faithful, Jesus adoring, orthodox Catholics who worship in and through the holy sacrifice of the mass in a N.O parish.
It’s so easy for you to dismiss the marginalization of the Trads because you have never experienced it yourself, and you won’t, as long as you stay in the NO. No one is trying to take away your Mass. You do not understand us, period. Additionally, I think that what you claim to witness in the NO (sincere conversions, etc.) is an anomaly and definitely not the norm in your average NO parish. Venture outside the bubble you’re in and see that things are not the same everywhere.
I sincerely pray the Lord helps you heal from your bitterness and hurt. It’s not His will for you to carry this. I know that joining my pain from abuse and trauma I experienced from my birth family to Jesus’s suffering for this world, and the redemption of the people who hurt me, has been a healing balm. I pray you experience that union with our Lord.
Make no mistake about it. The world is your enemy if you are a Christian. None of the apostles had a cozy life or death. If you are a comfortable Christian, you had better think again. This is warfare and the enemy is the world.
Dr. K, Ugh, this must have been hard to write. I find nothing in your post to disagree with. Telling the truth about the Church is like lancing a boil. Someone's got to do it. May many others emulate your brave perspective. Thank you.
Or, to paraphrase what Malachi Martin often (and boldly) said: the organization is finished. No, no - not the body of the Faithful. That other thing that we used to take for granted as the body of the Faithful. Looking less audacious and more accurate by the day, isn't it?
For the holy intentions and conversion of our bishops, esp. Leo XIV, +++.
You’ve described the situation very well. I am still in morning from the Knoxville shutdown. I can only ask the Lord to intervene. The suffering is great.
Orthodox Christian here. I’m praying for all who are suffering in their churches, no matter what tradition. You are in my heart, my sister. Fear not. 🩷
THIS!!! Thank you so much for expressing what so many of us perceive and struggle against. It’s comforting to get confirmation of so many points in this article. Too many to address here. I’ll just comment on a couple. The speculation (and possibly true observations) on how many diocesan priest manage in the current church environment was enlightening and helpful. So many of them are in an impossible position. But, your expression of the underlying strength and protections of the faithful that rounded out the article is a very welcome message. Thank you for reaffirming truth. (I’m a Pelican + subscriber by the way and couldn’t be happier with all that it offers).
"Sodomodernist", a perfect term to bring a degree of understanding to my rattling thoughts & angst. And the final sentence the perfect solution. Many thanks.
Peter, a great and timely post. I believe that for wayward bishops and priests the fundamental problem is that they no longer, or have never believed, in the Real Presence. It was this lack of faith that caused the rebellion of such people as Martin Luther and Thomas Cranmer despite what other excuses they may have used. The Catholic faith doesn't mean much if you negate that belief. The Novus Ordo with its lame Offertory and Second Eucharist Prayer (which is most often used, not the Roman Canon) allows you to skate around and slide past any belief in the the Real Presence. With the TLM it smacks you in the face. There is no escaping it. So once the modern bishops and priests no longer have their faith, they look for some other faith to believe in to justify their positions to themselves and that faith is self worship. Everything else flows from their - sodomy, modernism etc.
"The answer is simple: such Catholics [who reject various dogmatic teachings] and their Masses do not pose any threat at all to the homosexuals and modernists..."
It's not that they don't pose any threat, it's that they are precisely the desired fruit of the new normal ortho-heterodoxy that the homo-modernists have brought to dominance in the official, institutional Church. More importantly, even the by-intent-orthodox Catholics who accept the authentic ordinary and universal magisterium of the Church are entirely complaisant, from a muddle-headed sense of piety, to the ascendant homo-modernist hierarchy. It is they -- the TOB people, the JPII Catholics, the hermeneutic of continuity people, the daily massers, the Rosary prayers -- who conceivably could and yet do not pose any threat to the corrupt. They may be 'orthodox' but are they virtuous? I sympathize with Kierkegaard in thinking this state of affairs is a more or less inevitable epiphenomenon of the crowd (against which TLM people too must be ever on guard). My suggestion, perhaps we need to be more synodal at a grassroots level, as in, have the fortitude to openly dissent from the lies and corruption, e.g., like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOgkj_eNZzM&list=PL9NOpoX7urstQeL7vggxy-itcXZNVn-pB
I know the promise the Gates of hell will not prevail against the church, but I wonder at the phrase will Jesus find any faith on earth when he returns
Me too. A phrase/question well worth wondering about. Whenever people try to minimize the corruption in the Church and say "but let's emphasize all the good stuff" I wonder: what? -- like Jesus did (not)?
Germany, hemorrhaging donations, relies on the forced (or denounce religion altogether) tax of the state through redistribution. That’s a distinction without a difference from the NGO system which exploded under the Biden administration (2.3 Billion and counting.) That’s been completely eliminated and now what? The bishops, in an urgent state of panic, don’t engage in synodal dialogue with ACTUAL pew sitters, no. They decide to admonish and shame to the glee of the secular punditry and marginal Catholic clergy and “cafeteria”
BTW, being one of those bewildered Catholics, I really appreciate your clear understanding. It is BECAUSE the old rite attracts and fosters orthodoxy that they do this. It’s so clear in the actions of these clearly vindictive Bishops outright banning not only it, but also rubrics clearly allowed in the Novus Ordo- ad orientem, communion rails, kneeling et al.
Yes - my account explains why they ALSO go after the "reverent Novus Ordo" - but the more clever among them will use the "reverent Novus Ordo" as a temporary way to lure people from the tradition in order to get them just where they want them, and then BANG, they will dismantle the new rite too. This process has happened over and over in the last 50 years, it's just that people don't pay enough attention to history to draw the lessons.
“And of all the sicknesses in the Church, denial of reality is one of the most widespread and most unacknowledged.” Indeed! Perhaps often unacknowledged because it is unknown. I am afraid the loss of contact with reality is a widespread negative effect of modernity itself. An excellent essay.
This article is simple and brilliant. I attend the TLM and we are always careful to invite our Bishop and thank him. There are some parishioners who sadly make it ‘us versus them’ and seem to make, I would submit, our tradition as a weapon.
I pray the pre 1955 breviary but during the week I support my local ( next door) Novus Ordo parish. The priest is Polish ( hence a very faith filled man) and uses me to teach by example and sometimes by talks to the congregation. To whit, I wear my veil, kneel and receive communion on the tongue. He let me run a consecration course to Mary. Father’s secret is an increased emphasis on adoration and confession. I am also responsible for our library and was very careful to place emphasis on the saints and our rich traditions. Many books I threw in the garbage!
The daily masses are very respectful and I sing a Marion antiphon to end Mass. Where people used to talk, I sing louder. As a former opera singer, not a problem. People got the hint, they stopped talking and they stay to thank our Lady.
While they will likely never join my parish, those of us who are traditional can make a difference in the quality of the worship.
( I sing in Latin)
I love your work! You inspired me to create a substack under the name Benedict Benson, so I can be free in my liturgical and theological comments without fear of censure from my college of therapists!
Some readers around the internet have raised the objection that I have not proved my claims about homosexuality, and that, since the claims are enormous in scope and seriousness, I have a responsibility to do so.
My first comment is that this is an essay, not a research paper; but it is indeed based on a lot of things I've read and heard over the years, as well as the evidence of my senses when I look at and listen to the prelates who call the shots.
Here's a snapshot of the evidence:
https://x.com/i/grok/share/HfXb8FflqhvpULmR5viXYC4b4
Interestingly, the number of gays seems to be much higher in religious orders than in diocesan presbyterates:
https://x.com/i/grok/share/FkE5htBkGxZzzKMLjBI0xsmQD
Some have questioned or tried to play down the results:
https://x.com/i/grok/share/TdkH0XiLpoAF4TjZaSqHeUi7f
There is definitely a lavender mafia operating at the higher echelons, as can be seen, e.g., from this map of all the McCarrick connections:
https://www.complicitclergy.com/2018/10/15/connections/
Now for a list of more particular discussions of the problem:
http://www.gomulka.net/State.pdf
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/gay-priests-catholic-elephant-is-still-in-the-sacristy/
https://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2011/11_12/2011_09_06_Sipe_CatholicSeminaries.htm
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/we-must-eradicate-churchs-gay-networks-to-fight-sex-abuse-moral-theologian/
https://www.complicitclergy.com/2019/03/31/archbishop-chaput-predatory-homosexuality-cause-of-abuse-crisis/
https://www.complicitclergy.com/2018/12/03/8683/
https://www.complicitclergy.com/2018/08/16/cleansing-the-church-of-clerical-sacrilege/
https://punchng.com/homosexuality-scandal-rocks-nigerian-catholic-church/
https://www.complicitclergy.com/2025/08/08/gridrgate/
One can call these pieces of data "converging evidence."
As for the claim about modernists, this is like shooting fish in a barrel, e.g.: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/moroccan-cardinal-says-church-must-abandon-idea-of-true-religion-false-religion/
Now, some say we should not openly proclaim the problems because we are only giving our enemies ammunition to use against us ("look how divisive the traditionalists are!").
However, no matter what we do, opponents of the TLM will say we're divisive; that's their go-to trick.
What would you expect? We are precisely "divisive" in that we want only truth, only tradition, and only sanctity, not lies, errors, novelties, and vices, and this cannot but be like a sword of division. Yet that is because, more fundamentally, we seek to adhere to Our Lord, His entire revelation, and His entire law. As St. Thomas says, love of something implies hatred of its contrary. Our opponents love what they are doing, and so they hate what we are doing.
It has never helped the Catholic Church to ignore evils or to sweep them under the carpet. The time has come for openly and boldly proclaiming the truth.
Dr. Kwasniewski, hi I’m new here. I found you via Matt Fradd and I read (and loved!) your new book Turned Around. I am a faithful Catholic convert who attends a N.O. mass. Ever since I started following you I have appreciated learning the history of the TLM, sacred music, etc. But, I’ve noticed that every single article’s comment section is full of comments degrading people like me, questioning our faithfulness, orthodoxy, holiness, and (see above the comment by David McPike) even our virtue (if I’m understanding him correctly). I am a leader at our parish OCIA and regularly walk next to new Catholics (many, many lives are being transformed in our N.O parish), and I disciple Catholics new to their faith and relationship with God. Jesus, in His great mercy and love, literally saved me from an abusive upbringing and resulting trauma, and kept me from wanting to end my life when I was 20. He is the love of my life. I honestly cannot believe how short-sighted and rude people seem to be on your Substack about people like me who attend the N.O mass. I really want to like the TLM, but I am so absolutely astounded by the continued comments I keep seeing on posts, even calling into question whether or not people who go to an N.O mass are even serious about the the holy sacrifice of the mass, that I’ve pretty much lost interest in even going to the TLM (there is a TLM mass 45 minutes from me, and we have attended once before). People have NO idea (it seems) what God is doing in peoples lives who are coming into the Church, even YES at a N.O parish. I witness this beauty and grace daily. It seriously saddens me what I’m seeing on here. I subscribed to Pelican + for a year, but if these are the kind of people I would meet at the TLM (silently judging me as “not virtuous” because I apparently don’t truly understand the liturgy unlike TLM-goers who, apparently, REALLY do…at least that’s what it consistently sounds like here), then who cares? I’ve been taking all of your claims and perspectives seriously, and I truly pray that God opens people’s eyes who hold these positions on your Substack to see that He is alive and well at the N.O mass. Praise be to Him forever.
Beth,
I know what you're talking about. I make it a strict point of discipline and honor to talk about ideas or views rather than people and their motives, unless there is too much evidence to deny (e.g. Fr. James Martin SJ). However, I also try to adopt a rather free-speech approach to comments, only very rarely deleting things if they are beyond the pale. That certainly doesn't mean I agree with all of them, or that they should be taken as representative of everyone who reads T&S. On the contrary: I have Novus Ordo readers, and beyond that, Protestant and Orthodox ones too.
Please know that you are welcome here, and that the work you're doing in your parish is important. God is at work everywhere. It is for us to cooperate with His graces and become His instruments of salvation.
God bless,
Dr. K
"I make it a strict point of discipline and honor to talk about ideas or views rather than people and their motives" -- unlike Beth, who it would seem called me rude and short-sighted and ignored the truth of my ideas/views. Right, Peter? You know what I'm talking about, brother?
I would never take the comment section of any blog, even one as nice as this one, as indicative of a whole religious community. I regularly attend both rites and am in complete agreement with Dr. K on their relative positions as he articulated to Matt Fradd. Most of the people I meet at the TLM would be happy to meet with you and help initiate you into the wonderful riches of the liturgical tradition without denigrating your faith or intelligence. I encourage you to come try it! Of course, online you are likely to encounter a lot more extreme bitterness and heightened emotions.
"I would never take the comment section of any blog, even one as nice as this one, as indicative of a whole religious community." Certainly some common sense there. Hopefully you would also never take your kneejerk negative reaction to particular comments in a comment section of any blog as entirely and sufficiently indicative of the truth expressed in that comment. Hopefully you would, as a strict matter of discipline and honor, try to substantiate your negative kneejerk reaction as having an objective foundation in the truth, rather than constituting a potentially sinful rash judgment of a brother in Christ.
As a former Protestant who was deeply scandalized by some overzealous trads back in the day, it breaks my heart when fellow converts and other Catholics have similar experiences that turn them off of the traditionalist movement. Lord, save us from ourselves.
If it helps to "peek behind the curtain" of TLM communities a little, I can attest to the fact that judgmental liturgy snobs are the exception at Mass, not the norm. In fact, in both of my local TLM communities, there's a large percentage of regulars and semi-regulars who attend non-TLM Masses on a recurring basis (for a variety of reasons). Even SSPX priests I've encountered, the most hardline TLM advocates out there, are the first to affirm that different Catholics understand the crisis in the Church in different ways, i.e. we live in confusing times, and so they don't presumptively judge individual souls who choose to attend the NO.
It might seem counter-intuitive to many, yet the trads I know are genuinely some of the most chill people when it comes to respecting others' goodwill in the liturgical realm. All sincere Catholics, trad and non-trad alike, are just trying to save their souls the best way they know how. Just like we trads don't like being pre-judged as "rigid" or "schismatic" based on where we go to Mass, most of us avoid jumping to unfair assumptions about other people's piety or holiness. (After all, the overwhelming majority of us began our faith journeys in NO parishes too.)
God bless your efforts to bring people into the Catholic faith, and I'll offer prayers that He would lead all of us (including curmudgeonly trads online) into greater charity and holiness.
Thank you. I really appreciate your comment and perspective!
Thank you for sharing your views. That has been my experience too.
Here is what I think the problem is: we (Trads) understand you, but you (NOs) do not understand us. What I mean is that 99% of Trads came from the NO, but 99% of NOs have never even been to a Trad Mass (and many are not even aware of the option.) Disclaimer-I use these numbers to generalize and make a point. I don’t know what the actual percentages are. Regardless, we understand what we’ve left, but you do not even know what you are missing. Here is my advice: First, do some research on the infiltration of the Church and learn about what happened at Vatican II-who was involved. Then learn how the Novus Ordo came to be. This will will not take long - it’s all out there on the Internet. Find the nearest Trad-only parish (no Novus Ordo Missae) and go there. Go to a High Mass and Low Mass. Use a provided missal. Look around, observe, open your heart and your mind, humble yourself, and most importantly, realize that none of what you are witnessing is about you personally. Then, I think you will begin to understand our position,and you won’t be so offended by our comments, and maybe, just maybe, you can help others who are. It requires effort to understand the Trad side, the problem is that most don’t want to make that effort. Until there is equal understanding on both sides, this divide will continue. God bless.
English:
I am Brazilian; I am 55 years old. I was born in the city of Recife, capital of the Federative Unit called Pernambuco. This place is full of Catholic monuments. Dom Pedro II filled this place with Catholic monuments. However, when I was born, darkness was already dominating everything; I was literally born into social darkness. This darkness was created by three groups: 1) the political heirs of the republican movement that overthrew our monarchy; 2) a political movement that began in the 1960s; and 3) the revolutionary clergy of Recife, who rebelled against the Tradition of the Church. Continuing... as a newborn, I received Catholic baptism. But my family lacked structure, something very common where I was born: here, thousands and thousands of women are single mothers; they usually have several children by several men. Continuing... in adolescence, I became Protestant... in adulthood, with the internet, I returned to the Holy Church. After some years I discovered the DIVISION: then I also discovered the existence of Tradition, and of the Traditional Latin Mass.
Going back to the beginning: in the city of Recife, where I was born, since the 1970s there has been an INFESTATION of new Protestant sects (this explains why I became Protestant). Thousands and thousands of Catholics abandoned the Catholic Church. In conclusion: today, in my country, socialism is reigning; false clothes multiply; Novus Ordo masses transform day by day; material poverty is terrible; morality is pure decadence. How did darkness grow like this? Here's what I understand: the clergy abandoned the people, and the Protestants welcomed them with lies and sentimentality. The most visible vices reached the upper social classes, and now, at this moment, these upper social classes have absorbed the cultural garbage, despised justice, and bought off the corrupt and decadent clergy. Worse: in the past, the poor classes learned some virtues from the high society that still honored the Catholic Church. Today, the lower social classes want to imitate the extreme ties of the upper social classes. Click on the link and you will get a glimpse of the social misery that dominates a Brazilian state that was once Catholic. (try "walking" through these streets).
Dido JS
Dido JS
agora mesmo
Perfeito. Vou escrever em português. Por favor traduza. Eu sou brasileiro; tenho 55 anos. Eu nasci na cidade de Recife, capital da Unidade Federativa chamada Pernambuco. Este lugar está cheio de monumentos católicos. Dom Pedro II encheu esse lugar de monumentos católicos. Todavia, quando eu nasci a escuridão já estava dominando tudo; eu nasci LITERALMENTE na escuridão social. Esta escuridão foi criada por três grupos: 1) os herdeiros políticos do movimento republicano que derrubou a nossa monarquia. 2) uma política que iniciou nos anos 60; e 3) O clero revolucionário de Recife, que se rebelou contra a Tradição da Igreja. Continuando... como recém nascido, eu recebi o batismo católico. Mas, minha família era sem estrutura, coisa muito comum onde eu nasci: aqui, milhares e milhares de mulheres são mães solteiras; elas geralmente têm vários filhos de vários homens. Continuando... na adolescência, eu me tornei protestante... na vida adulta, com a internet, voltei para a Santa Igreja. Depois de alguns anos eu descobri a DIVISÃO: então eu também descobri a existência da Tradição, e da Missa de Sempre.
Voltando ao início: na cidade de Recife, onde eu nasci, desde os anos de 1970 houve uma INFESTAÇÃO de novas seitas protestantes (isso explica porque eu me tornei protestantes). Milhares e milhares de católicos abandonaram a Igreja Católica. Concluindo: hoje, no meu país, o socialismo está reinando; falsas roupas se multiplicam; as missas Novus Ordo se transformam dia após dia; a pobreza material é tenebrosa; a moralidade é pura decadência. Como a escuridão cresceu assim? Aqui está o que eu compreendo: o clero abandonou o povo, e os protestantes o acolheram com mentiras e sentimentalismo. Os vícios mais visíveis chegaram às altas classes sociais, e agora, neste momento, estas altas classes sociais absorveram o lixo cultural, desprezaram a justiça, compraram o clero corrupto e decadente. Pior: no passado, as classes pobres aprenderam algumas virtudes com a alta sociedade que ainda honrava a Igreja Católica. Hoje, as classes sociais baixas querem imitar os vínculos extremos das classes sociais altas. Clique no link e você terá uma visão da miséria social que domina uma Unidade Federativa do Brasil que um dia foi católica. (experimente "caminhar" por essas ruas).
https://www.google.com/maps/place/R.+Nova+Divineia,+332+-+Cajueiro+Seco,+Jaboat%C3%A3o+dos+Guararapes+-+PE,+54330-385/@-8.1721664,-34.9244407,761m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x7aae1bb5da2fe4d:0x88d9f5247eccefa9!8m2!3d-8.1719627!4d-34.9225414?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MTIwOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Of course, you'll also see some places where there's still some wealth, but that's a result of a bygone era.
The moral of my comment: the New Mass is more than a blow to the True Liturgy. The New Mass is a strong arm for chaos, for the presence of EVIL in the world. This, unfortunately, is something that Catholics of the New Mass (I mean: liberal Catholics) fail to understand. Best regards.
Perfect. I will write in Portuguese. Please translate. Eu sou brasileiro; tenho 55 anos. Eu nasci na cidade de Recife, capital da Unidade Federativa chamada Pernambuco. Este lugar está cheio de monumentos católicos. Dom Pedro II encheu esse lugar de monumentos católicos. Todavia, quando eu nasci a escuridão já estava dominando tudo; eu nasci LITERALMENTE na escuridão social. Esta escuridão foi criada por três grupos: 1) os políticos herdeiros do movimento republicano que derrubou a nossa monarquia. 2) a política que iniciou nos anos 60; e 3) O clero revolucionário de Recife, que se rebelou contra a Tradição da Igreja. Continuando... como recém nascido, eu recebi o batismo católico. Mas, minha família era sem estrutura, coisa muito comum onde eu nasci: aqui, milhares e milhares de mulheres são mães solteiras; elas geralmente têm vários filhos de vários homens. Continuando... na adolescência, eu me tornei protestante... na vida adulta, com a internet, voltei para a Santa Igreja. Depois de alguns anos eu descobri a DIVISÃO: então eu também descobri a existência da Tradição, e da Missa de Sempre.
Voltando ao início: na cidade de Recife, onde eu nasci, desde os anos de 1970 houve uma INFESTAÇÃO de novas seitas protestantes (isso explica porque eu me tornei protestantes). Milhares e milhares de católicos abandonaram a Igreja Católica. Concluindo: hoje, no meu país, o socialismo está reinando; falsas igrejas se multiplicam; as missas Novus Ordo se transformam dia após dia; a pobreza material é tenebrosa; a moralidade é pura decadência. Como a escuridão cresceu assim? Aqui está o que eu compreendo: o clero abandonou o povo, e os protestantes o acolheram com mentiras e sentimentalismo. Os vícios mais terríveis chegaram às altas classes sociais, e agora, neste momento, estas altas classes sociais absorvem o lixo cultural, desprezam a justiça, compram o clero corrupto e decadente. Pior: no passado, as classes pobres aprendiam algumas virtudes com a alta sociedade que ainda honrava Igreja Católica. Hoje, as baixas classes sociais querem imitar os vícios terríveis das altas classes sociais. Clique no link e você terá uma visão da miséria social que domina uma Unidade Federativa do Brasil que um dia foi católica. (experimente "caminhar" por essas ruas).
https://www.google.com/maps/place/R.+Nova+Divineia,+332+-+Cajueiro+Seco,+Jaboat%C3%A3o+dos+Guararapes+-+PE,+54330-385/@-8.1721664,-34.9244407,761m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x7aae1bb5da2fe4d:0x88d9f5247eccefa9!8m2!3d-8.1719627!4d-34.9225414?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MTIwOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Claro, você também vai ver alguns lugares onde ainda há certa riqueza, mas isso é resultado de um tempo passado.
Moral do meu comentário: a Missa Nova é mais que um golpe na Verdadeira Liturgia. A missa nova é um braço forte para o caos, para a presença do MAL no mundo. Isso, infelizmente, os católicos da missa nova (digo: católicos liberais) não conseguem entender. Abraço.
Thank you for your response. I’ve been mulling over all of these responses on this thread the past few days. I’ve read a lot about the TLM (and also various Eastern Catholic liturgies and traditions) as I was making my way into the Catholic Church 4 years ago, and have learned a lot, particularly from Dr. K and appreciate his voice on this topic more than any other person I’ve read or heard. He is extremely intelligent and well-read, balanced, charitable, passionate and excited to show the world the full riches and treasures of the Roman Catholic Church. But I think after my first foray into commenting here (and brought to that point because, like I said, I was commenting on a particularly negative view about people who attend the N.O. that I keep seeing popping up over and over in the comment section), it has only just reinforced that I’m just going to focus on where God has placed me. Yes, at a N.O parish. Referring to your other comment (where you said I was in a bubble)…well, my parish has a lot of issues (as all parishes do, I don’t think a TLM is an exception since there are fallen humans present!), but I am walking next to a lot of regular ole people who are seeking hope, truth, love and their lives are being transformed by the God who loves them with an unending love. Even yesterday after mass I met an entire family who are coming into the Church at Easter, 9 children, one on the way, the dad has a brain tumor that is inoperable. They are so grateful for our parish and the love they have felt. The parents said to me yesterday that they really sense God here and that’s why they decided to go through OCIA. Every person coming into the Church at Easter this year has a complicated life story like we all do. There are many, many people who, like me, have met Jesus and have had our lives changed, and our mission is reach our city with the gospel and to bring people into His Kingdom. I love learning about all the deep riches of the Catholic Church, and will continue. But I see no real point in going to a TLM parish because I truly don’t see the need, and it may seem unbelievable to people who have commented, I know, that someone would choose to stay at an N.O parish, but I honestly don’t have the time or energy to get into a huge arguments about it. I’d rather be spending the short life God has given me discipling people in an N.O parish, (I’m even thinking about starting a schola there since Chant Academy online teaches people how to do that!) than fighting about the TLM. God bless you and I am very happy you have found a place where you experience His transforming grace. Please pray for me if you think about it! And pray for the father of this family I mentioned.
Ok, so that is your prerogative, and it’s understandable and also easier and convenient. But if you aren’t willing to make any sort of effort to try to understand where Trads are coming from (this is what you implied by saying you see no point in going to a TLM) then I don’t think you have the right to insinuate that we are bullies and say “mean or negative” things to you. Just for the record, Trads (especially those attending diocesan TLMs -myself included) have experienced plenty of disdain coming from the Novus Ordos that they share the parishes with. We just don’t complain about it perhaps because we’re used to being marginalized and treated badly by our own church (hierarchy) whereas your side has no idea what that feels like. And so just like another commenter on here, you have proved my original point - general lack of understanding (and interest) of the Trad position by the Novus Ordo side. It’s one thing to read about Tradition, but it’s quite another to experience it first hand. I think one must do both to truly get it. Take care, and God bless you on your journey.
The thing is, you claim we are on “different sides.” And that “my side” doesn’t understand “your side.” That is an extremely simplistic way of viewing anyone, let alone the Catholic Church. I would never dream of claiming that “I understand you” (or not) because of the liturgy in the Catholic Church in which you worship and receive our Holy God (which you said in your original comment. You “understand” me but I don’t understand you). Whether or not you want to believe it, we are one in Christ. We both partake of His Body and are united mystically in that. We both celebrate the Church’s feasts. We both have relationships with the Saints. We both receive the Sacraments. We both meditate deeply on Holy Scripture. I’m not persecuting you because I said I don’t think I have a need to go to the TLM.
Something that I have not said (because like I said, humans are much more complicated than “pick a side” kind of thinking) is that my parish priest, at my N.O parish, is the *same* priest who presides over the TLM at another parish 45 minutes from me. I am familiar with the TLM more than you know. But even he, a man who calls himself a “traditional priest,” would never in a million years make the statements you (or the other people criticizing me for pointing something out) have made. His perspective is much wider and deeper than a “pick your side!” position. He and I have had many talks about the TLM (and the Maronite rite. And the Byzantine rite). My original comment still stands…there are ridiculous statements made consistently in the comment section of this Substack that lump every Catholic at the N.O mass into some weird group of oppressors who are clueless (or worse). Every commenter who has been arguing about what I’ve said only highlights my point. You clearly cannot see that more and more people are interested in what Dr. K is teaching and uncovering for the average person, by being on platforms like Pints With Aquinas. But for people to excitedly sign up for this Substack, and then see the comments…it’s extremely off-putting. If people who love the TLM want to bring this treasure more fully into view, then stop being so rude to people who attend the N.O mass. It’s pretty simple. All you are doing is shooting yourself in the foot. And you can see by the couple comments from people who were reasonable and even agreed with me, I’m not the only one who has experienced this.
Beth, so you think that every criticism of you is ridiculous and just proves your point?? Hm. Interesting. Perhaps you believe this; but perhaps you are mistaken. Perhaps you are not entirely free of the hardness of heart our Lord lamented. It appears, in fact, that you are unwilling to offer any substantive constructive response to those (my!) criticisms. Why is that, Beth??
(It seems to me that there is a good deal of hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness in your claim that you'd never claim to understand someone based on which mass they went to; and your grandiose dismissal here of your interlocutor's understanding as 'extremely simplistic' strikes me as pretentious and false. You claimed to understand that TLM commenters here are rude and short-sighted based (partly) on your (mistaken!) assumption that I go to the TLM, did you not? And yet you declined to say wherein my allegedly rude and short-sighted comment was anything but entirely truthful and objectively plausible. So what's up with that? [Some particularly rich irony/hypocrisy: you say "stop being so rude to people who attend the NO mass" -- which in fact describes precisely your treatment of me, a person who attends the NO mass, does it not?? You don't have to answer now, but someday, for every idle word... (I suggest you meditate deeply on that one).])
Here's a proposition for you, Beth, which looks plausible to me. Please comment:
The fundamental attitude of "how dare you question my/our unquestionable virtue, you rude short-sighted person?" is the/a keystone moral-theological 'doctrine' of the now-reigning homo-modernist(-feminist) paradigm in the Catholic Church.
Hey Beth, may I suggest that if you're not prepared to question your own virtue, that's pretty good proof of your lack of virtue? I'm pretty sure that most people at NO masses don't even know what virtue is! BTW, you seem to assume -- but mistakenly, let me inform you -- that I don't attend a NO parish.
David, I think Catholics can have radically different experiences of NO communities depending on so many different factors (indeed, this is one of the problems: that there is almost no way of knowing what you'll find when you go through the doors of a Catholic church). I've been involved in some NO communities where a lot of people are very serious and intentional about their faith and the life of virtue; I've also seen NO communities that are scarcely distinguishable from secularized Protestants.
Sure Peter, I've been part of plenty of NO communities myself. Please don't imagine my comments are written from some kind of vacuum of no-personal-experience. And of course the complexity of individual subjective experience of anything is a given. But I dare say my point stands: those who are incapable of serious questioning regarding virtue are ipso facto seriously lacking in virtue (if not absolutely, at least in degree/maturity). Imagine you (or Beth) were a Cretan and you read Titus 1:12-13 (i.e., the God-breathed scripture)? What's your (or Beth's) likely reaction? "Well experience of Cretans can radically differ." (Or "I can't believe how short-sighted and rude Paul and the Holy Spirit are being here.") Notwithstanding your possible personal reaction(s), I think Paul and the HS still might have a serious point to make that you would do badly to simply dismiss, perhaps because in your sovereign opinion those two are just being rude.
Even if, as you say, your “whole community has been threatened, ostracised, expunged by wicked Popes, Bishops, Priests” my point is still that that doesn’t have to do with the many, many hearts of faithful, Jesus adoring, orthodox Catholics who worship in and through the holy sacrifice of the mass in a N.O parish. Yes, you need love. And the love of God is perfect mercy and grace, astringent love that purifies and lifts His children up into the Oneness of the Triune life of our Holy God. The comments I am repeatedly seeing and referring to are TLM people who deny that people who attend a N.O are virtuous (that’s literally what was spoken in the comment and the general tone in many comments), and not as enlightened or holy. I am truly sorry you have experienced spiritual abuse, and pray you come to a deep healing and peace.
Beth, have you ever seriously considered the question (the actual question): Is it possible that NO mass-goers might be relatively lacking in virtue, or particularly defective in certain virtues (as polls quite objectively seem to suggest)? Or when you come across a comment like that do you just react: Omigosh, that is so rude and I feel so judged!
(You write like a religious pragmatist: "How can you question, when lives are being transformed?" Well if someone becomes Muslim and her life is transformed, does that mean she isn't lacking in any virtues?? What is your understanding of and criteria for assessing virtue?? Are you really so certain they're adequate?)
FWIW, I feel like (the evidence shows) you're more the latter, i.e., not truth-, but feeling-oriented. Which would indeed imply, in my view, that you are less virtuous than you could/should be. If indeed I have spoken wrongly, by all means, testify to the wrong. If you just don't like what I've said, notwithstanding the question of truth, then what do you think that says about you and your virtue? What, in all seriousness, is your best moral theological analysis here??
“Even if, as you say, your “whole community has been threatened, ostracised, expunged by wicked Popes, Bishops, Priests” my point is still that that doesn’t have to do with the many, many hearts of faithful, Jesus adoring, orthodox Catholics who worship in and through the holy sacrifice of the mass in a N.O parish.
It’s so easy for you to dismiss the marginalization of the Trads because you have never experienced it yourself, and you won’t, as long as you stay in the NO. No one is trying to take away your Mass. You do not understand us, period. Additionally, I think that what you claim to witness in the NO (sincere conversions, etc.) is an anomaly and definitely not the norm in your average NO parish. Venture outside the bubble you’re in and see that things are not the same everywhere.
I sincerely pray the Lord helps you heal from your bitterness and hurt. It’s not His will for you to carry this. I know that joining my pain from abuse and trauma I experienced from my birth family to Jesus’s suffering for this world, and the redemption of the people who hurt me, has been a healing balm. I pray you experience that union with our Lord.
Extraordinary beautiful exemplarilry expressed.
Thank you Dr. Kwasniewski.
Make no mistake about it. The world is your enemy if you are a Christian. None of the apostles had a cozy life or death. If you are a comfortable Christian, you had better think again. This is warfare and the enemy is the world.
Dr. K, Ugh, this must have been hard to write. I find nothing in your post to disagree with. Telling the truth about the Church is like lancing a boil. Someone's got to do it. May many others emulate your brave perspective. Thank you.
Or, to paraphrase what Malachi Martin often (and boldly) said: the organization is finished. No, no - not the body of the Faithful. That other thing that we used to take for granted as the body of the Faithful. Looking less audacious and more accurate by the day, isn't it?
For the holy intentions and conversion of our bishops, esp. Leo XIV, +++.
You’ve described the situation very well. I am still in morning from the Knoxville shutdown. I can only ask the Lord to intervene. The suffering is great.
Orthodox Christian here. I’m praying for all who are suffering in their churches, no matter what tradition. You are in my heart, my sister. Fear not. 🩷
Thank you, sister. I so appreciate your comment. God bless you!
THIS!!! Thank you so much for expressing what so many of us perceive and struggle against. It’s comforting to get confirmation of so many points in this article. Too many to address here. I’ll just comment on a couple. The speculation (and possibly true observations) on how many diocesan priest manage in the current church environment was enlightening and helpful. So many of them are in an impossible position. But, your expression of the underlying strength and protections of the faithful that rounded out the article is a very welcome message. Thank you for reaffirming truth. (I’m a Pelican + subscriber by the way and couldn’t be happier with all that it offers).
"Sodomodernist", a perfect term to bring a degree of understanding to my rattling thoughts & angst. And the final sentence the perfect solution. Many thanks.
Peter, a great and timely post. I believe that for wayward bishops and priests the fundamental problem is that they no longer, or have never believed, in the Real Presence. It was this lack of faith that caused the rebellion of such people as Martin Luther and Thomas Cranmer despite what other excuses they may have used. The Catholic faith doesn't mean much if you negate that belief. The Novus Ordo with its lame Offertory and Second Eucharist Prayer (which is most often used, not the Roman Canon) allows you to skate around and slide past any belief in the the Real Presence. With the TLM it smacks you in the face. There is no escaping it. So once the modern bishops and priests no longer have their faith, they look for some other faith to believe in to justify their positions to themselves and that faith is self worship. Everything else flows from their - sodomy, modernism etc.
"The answer is simple: such Catholics [who reject various dogmatic teachings] and their Masses do not pose any threat at all to the homosexuals and modernists..."
It's not that they don't pose any threat, it's that they are precisely the desired fruit of the new normal ortho-heterodoxy that the homo-modernists have brought to dominance in the official, institutional Church. More importantly, even the by-intent-orthodox Catholics who accept the authentic ordinary and universal magisterium of the Church are entirely complaisant, from a muddle-headed sense of piety, to the ascendant homo-modernist hierarchy. It is they -- the TOB people, the JPII Catholics, the hermeneutic of continuity people, the daily massers, the Rosary prayers -- who conceivably could and yet do not pose any threat to the corrupt. They may be 'orthodox' but are they virtuous? I sympathize with Kierkegaard in thinking this state of affairs is a more or less inevitable epiphenomenon of the crowd (against which TLM people too must be ever on guard). My suggestion, perhaps we need to be more synodal at a grassroots level, as in, have the fortitude to openly dissent from the lies and corruption, e.g., like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOgkj_eNZzM&list=PL9NOpoX7urstQeL7vggxy-itcXZNVn-pB
I know the promise the Gates of hell will not prevail against the church, but I wonder at the phrase will Jesus find any faith on earth when he returns
Me too. A phrase/question well worth wondering about. Whenever people try to minimize the corruption in the Church and say "but let's emphasize all the good stuff" I wonder: what? -- like Jesus did (not)?
Germany, hemorrhaging donations, relies on the forced (or denounce religion altogether) tax of the state through redistribution. That’s a distinction without a difference from the NGO system which exploded under the Biden administration (2.3 Billion and counting.) That’s been completely eliminated and now what? The bishops, in an urgent state of panic, don’t engage in synodal dialogue with ACTUAL pew sitters, no. They decide to admonish and shame to the glee of the secular punditry and marginal Catholic clergy and “cafeteria”
community.
Money is a big factor, Peter, don’t you think?
Yes, of course; but that only suggests we are not dealing with actual believers, but with proud, ambitious, selfish men.
BTW, being one of those bewildered Catholics, I really appreciate your clear understanding. It is BECAUSE the old rite attracts and fosters orthodoxy that they do this. It’s so clear in the actions of these clearly vindictive Bishops outright banning not only it, but also rubrics clearly allowed in the Novus Ordo- ad orientem, communion rails, kneeling et al.
I can’t believe I didn’t see this before!
Yes - my account explains why they ALSO go after the "reverent Novus Ordo" - but the more clever among them will use the "reverent Novus Ordo" as a temporary way to lure people from the tradition in order to get them just where they want them, and then BANG, they will dismantle the new rite too. This process has happened over and over in the last 50 years, it's just that people don't pay enough attention to history to draw the lessons.
True
“And of all the sicknesses in the Church, denial of reality is one of the most widespread and most unacknowledged.” Indeed! Perhaps often unacknowledged because it is unknown. I am afraid the loss of contact with reality is a widespread negative effect of modernity itself. An excellent essay.
This article is simple and brilliant. I attend the TLM and we are always careful to invite our Bishop and thank him. There are some parishioners who sadly make it ‘us versus them’ and seem to make, I would submit, our tradition as a weapon.
I pray the pre 1955 breviary but during the week I support my local ( next door) Novus Ordo parish. The priest is Polish ( hence a very faith filled man) and uses me to teach by example and sometimes by talks to the congregation. To whit, I wear my veil, kneel and receive communion on the tongue. He let me run a consecration course to Mary. Father’s secret is an increased emphasis on adoration and confession. I am also responsible for our library and was very careful to place emphasis on the saints and our rich traditions. Many books I threw in the garbage!
The daily masses are very respectful and I sing a Marion antiphon to end Mass. Where people used to talk, I sing louder. As a former opera singer, not a problem. People got the hint, they stopped talking and they stay to thank our Lady.
While they will likely never join my parish, those of us who are traditional can make a difference in the quality of the worship.
( I sing in Latin)
I love your work! You inspired me to create a substack under the name Benedict Benson, so I can be free in my liturgical and theological comments without fear of censure from my college of therapists!
Thank you for your kind words! To God be the glory.
I don’t think you will be getting any invitations for lunch at the Vatican considering what you wrote here. Me either.
Now I’m off to read your post on surviving in unholy and unchristian times. Thanks.
Indeed!
Thank you for being a reader here.
God gives us grace to distinguish between the influences of earth and heaven. It is our duty to distinguish and balance between the two.