This is about the most horrific firsthand account I’ve heard of the dark side of the Church. And with all this falseness going on, it keeps good seminarians from becoming good priests. Most Holy Theotokos, pray for us.
There are many well attested accounts of traditionalist applicants to dioceses and religious orders being turned away in the post Vatican II era. Michael Rose’s Goodbye Good Men provided compelling and shocking evidence of this from the US. But this account from ‘Jack’ looks implausible on many levels. If about a fifth of the students in the English College got booted out in one go in circumstances like these it would have created ripples. Many of the people involved are presumably still around and the facts could be checked.
Whatever the numbers (sometimes fish get larger as the fisherman tells his tale), in every other respect the story took place as he told it, and from what I know, it's completely believable.
We will all have our own views on what is plausible. Also, as I've said, I don't dispute that some deplorable policies, actions and attitudes have been displayed towards men and women of a traditionalist bent seeking ordination or admission to religious orders. However, here are some of the things I found implausible in Jack's account:
He applies to Clifton diocese, referencing the Ordinary as 'Bishop Jim'. The bishop in these years was Mervyn Alban Alexander. Was Jim his nickname? The Vocations Director is named as Fr Terry Dowding - there is no suggestion a pseudonym is used. Priests nowadays can't avoid leaving some imprint on the internet, but I can't find a priest by this name via any search. And, while all manner of strange things were being said at this time I find it hard to believe a Vocations Director would actually have suggested to a candidate they might not be suitable for the priesthood because they had never had extra-marital sex. Just an unlikely is that he would feel able to confirm a candidate's acceptance without the bishop having interviewed him.
The account of the events leading to the instant simultaneous dismissals of four students must surely reflect your point about fishermen's tales. That between the four leaving the bar near the SSPX church and arriving back at the college half and hour away upwards of four bishops in England had been contacted by Rome and approved on the spot their immediate termination requires a high tolerance for tall tales. And with no prior warning; and no discussion with the Rector?
Here I would add some perceptions of my own from personal experience. I know quite a few priests who studied at the English College. One, a few years before these events, was offered a senior position in running it. He declined, telling me later that he didn't want to get drawn into endless liturgical disputes between progressives and traditionalists - which hardly suggests the latter had to keep their heads down. The other priest was there a little later: he described his incredulity that a large number of the students, after the Triduum services at the College (Novus Ordo of course) would then openly travel to the church of an Ecclesia Dei institute to experience the same service in the traditional rite. Again, any fit with Jack's story is hard to find.
One last, perhaps uber-pedantic - point: England did not play any rugby internationals in September 1993! Put that one down to the fishermen too!
I spoke to Joseph Bevan about this, and he replied:
"Please convey the following to Mr Richardson.
"I changed the names of Bishop Jim and Fr Dowding for obvious reasons.
Actually, it was a football match
I know 2 ex-English college chaps.. The ‘keeping their heads down’ is certainly true, as is the necessity of growing stubble.
I saw the guitars on the back benches of the chapel myself.
Going to an ecclesia dei Mass was frowned upon but tolerated. Visiting the SSPX Mass was instant dismissal. This happened but was ‘unofficial’ and unrecorded for obvious reasons.
Asking about pre-marital sex – that definitely happened. It also happened at Allen Hall, Westminster Archdiocese seminary.
In spite of Mr Richardson’s critique, he does admit the underlying thrust of my story - the internal warfare within the seminary."
I don't believe I've admitted anything! But rather than perpetuate the exchange I suggest we draw stumps at this point. (With apologies to US readers: the story having moved from rugby to football, I have just used an idiom from another game we English invented: cricket).
This is about the most horrific firsthand account I’ve heard of the dark side of the Church. And with all this falseness going on, it keeps good seminarians from becoming good priests. Most Holy Theotokos, pray for us.
There are many well attested accounts of traditionalist applicants to dioceses and religious orders being turned away in the post Vatican II era. Michael Rose’s Goodbye Good Men provided compelling and shocking evidence of this from the US. But this account from ‘Jack’ looks implausible on many levels. If about a fifth of the students in the English College got booted out in one go in circumstances like these it would have created ripples. Many of the people involved are presumably still around and the facts could be checked.
Whatever the numbers (sometimes fish get larger as the fisherman tells his tale), in every other respect the story took place as he told it, and from what I know, it's completely believable.
We will all have our own views on what is plausible. Also, as I've said, I don't dispute that some deplorable policies, actions and attitudes have been displayed towards men and women of a traditionalist bent seeking ordination or admission to religious orders. However, here are some of the things I found implausible in Jack's account:
He applies to Clifton diocese, referencing the Ordinary as 'Bishop Jim'. The bishop in these years was Mervyn Alban Alexander. Was Jim his nickname? The Vocations Director is named as Fr Terry Dowding - there is no suggestion a pseudonym is used. Priests nowadays can't avoid leaving some imprint on the internet, but I can't find a priest by this name via any search. And, while all manner of strange things were being said at this time I find it hard to believe a Vocations Director would actually have suggested to a candidate they might not be suitable for the priesthood because they had never had extra-marital sex. Just an unlikely is that he would feel able to confirm a candidate's acceptance without the bishop having interviewed him.
The account of the events leading to the instant simultaneous dismissals of four students must surely reflect your point about fishermen's tales. That between the four leaving the bar near the SSPX church and arriving back at the college half and hour away upwards of four bishops in England had been contacted by Rome and approved on the spot their immediate termination requires a high tolerance for tall tales. And with no prior warning; and no discussion with the Rector?
Here I would add some perceptions of my own from personal experience. I know quite a few priests who studied at the English College. One, a few years before these events, was offered a senior position in running it. He declined, telling me later that he didn't want to get drawn into endless liturgical disputes between progressives and traditionalists - which hardly suggests the latter had to keep their heads down. The other priest was there a little later: he described his incredulity that a large number of the students, after the Triduum services at the College (Novus Ordo of course) would then openly travel to the church of an Ecclesia Dei institute to experience the same service in the traditional rite. Again, any fit with Jack's story is hard to find.
One last, perhaps uber-pedantic - point: England did not play any rugby internationals in September 1993! Put that one down to the fishermen too!
I spoke to Joseph Bevan about this, and he replied:
"Please convey the following to Mr Richardson.
"I changed the names of Bishop Jim and Fr Dowding for obvious reasons.
Actually, it was a football match
I know 2 ex-English college chaps.. The ‘keeping their heads down’ is certainly true, as is the necessity of growing stubble.
I saw the guitars on the back benches of the chapel myself.
Going to an ecclesia dei Mass was frowned upon but tolerated. Visiting the SSPX Mass was instant dismissal. This happened but was ‘unofficial’ and unrecorded for obvious reasons.
Asking about pre-marital sex – that definitely happened. It also happened at Allen Hall, Westminster Archdiocese seminary.
In spite of Mr Richardson’s critique, he does admit the underlying thrust of my story - the internal warfare within the seminary."
I don't believe I've admitted anything! But rather than perpetuate the exchange I suggest we draw stumps at this point. (With apologies to US readers: the story having moved from rugby to football, I have just used an idiom from another game we English invented: cricket).
That's fine with me.
BTW, I used to play rugby in high school, I loved it. One of the most exciting sports ever invented, and far better than American football.