Brilliant framing on this one. The inversion is what alot of people miss: the charge that traditional liturgy borrowed from secular courts actually gets the causality backwards. Temple worship established that paradigm first, and royal courts then mirrored divine worship. The Bagshawe reference nails it, and it sidesteps the tired "Baroque contamination" arguement that keeps getting recycled without examining its actual historical basis.
We can add, further, that if there WAS cross-pollination between temple and court, this is only fitting since earthly kings are called to be images of God the Father. So, the fact that candles and incense were used in honor of the Roman Emperor and then were transferred to the Gospel procession (as appears to be the case) is not at all strange.
All of this reminds me that I I have Vatican II fatigue. The same arguments have been trotted out for decades now about liturgy and the new springtime but the true believer bishops just want to Vatican II harder, whatever the results costs, etc. The experience of debating liturgy can be draining. I've been involved in the Indult and we did have a very strange thing happen when first regular Latin Mass returned to my parish. One of the doors was open and a huge wind blew after Mass had started. The wind blew out the candles at the altar of Our Lady and set off the fire alarm. The priest bravely continued in the noise but eventually the fire department showed up and made everyone leave including the priest. It became a circus, with firemen roaming around and people going outside. Call me superstitious, but it really felt like an attack on the Mass by the devil. This never happened with the new Mass.
Oh there's no doubt the devil hates the Latin Mass. I once knew a good priest, he was persecuted a lot for being attached to the TLM. He said to me: "The bishops hate the old Mass more than they do the devil himself."
Of course, that's true of only some bishops.
Most bishops, it seems to me, are just cowardly, uncommitted, passive, unwilling to buck the trend or "get in trouble." The episcopal conferences are a mechanism for guaranteeing mediocrity and further decline.
I truly believe, at this point, that most of the Church in the West is going to disappear and only pockets of more or less traditional Catholics will remain, in 30 years or so.
The episcopal conferences are probably part of the errors of Russia within the church, Soviet Catholicism, a party conference. What a prophecy about disappearance, but sadly one church at a time it is happening like lights going out in the spreading darkness.
As I listen this morning, I am filled with hope, joy and love for the Traditional Latin Mass. Once again, it becomes more obvious that modernism is truly a heresy and an evil.
When will we stop getting two emails with the same subject? /j, really; I know such things take time. I hope you and your family have a blessed and peaceful Advent.
If you are already signed up on Pelican, there's no need for you to remain signed up at this Substack, as I will not be publishing anything here that is not also publish (in full) at Pelican. Have I misunderstood your question?
I realised as I pushed 'send' that probably I ought to go to Substack to stop T&S there. Very much disapprove of 'the machines' but the fact is, I guess, that I expect them to relieve my laziness a bit too frequently. :-)
No worries, I realize it takes some extra steps and I'm grateful for everyone who's been willing to take a chance with Pelican+! I think it has been and will be richly rewarded.
Brilliant framing on this one. The inversion is what alot of people miss: the charge that traditional liturgy borrowed from secular courts actually gets the causality backwards. Temple worship established that paradigm first, and royal courts then mirrored divine worship. The Bagshawe reference nails it, and it sidesteps the tired "Baroque contamination" arguement that keeps getting recycled without examining its actual historical basis.
Exactly.
We can add, further, that if there WAS cross-pollination between temple and court, this is only fitting since earthly kings are called to be images of God the Father. So, the fact that candles and incense were used in honor of the Roman Emperor and then were transferred to the Gospel procession (as appears to be the case) is not at all strange.
Yes, the universe is a monarchy.
All of this reminds me that I I have Vatican II fatigue. The same arguments have been trotted out for decades now about liturgy and the new springtime but the true believer bishops just want to Vatican II harder, whatever the results costs, etc. The experience of debating liturgy can be draining. I've been involved in the Indult and we did have a very strange thing happen when first regular Latin Mass returned to my parish. One of the doors was open and a huge wind blew after Mass had started. The wind blew out the candles at the altar of Our Lady and set off the fire alarm. The priest bravely continued in the noise but eventually the fire department showed up and made everyone leave including the priest. It became a circus, with firemen roaming around and people going outside. Call me superstitious, but it really felt like an attack on the Mass by the devil. This never happened with the new Mass.
What a story!
Oh there's no doubt the devil hates the Latin Mass. I once knew a good priest, he was persecuted a lot for being attached to the TLM. He said to me: "The bishops hate the old Mass more than they do the devil himself."
Of course, that's true of only some bishops.
Most bishops, it seems to me, are just cowardly, uncommitted, passive, unwilling to buck the trend or "get in trouble." The episcopal conferences are a mechanism for guaranteeing mediocrity and further decline.
I truly believe, at this point, that most of the Church in the West is going to disappear and only pockets of more or less traditional Catholics will remain, in 30 years or so.
The episcopal conferences are probably part of the errors of Russia within the church, Soviet Catholicism, a party conference. What a prophecy about disappearance, but sadly one church at a time it is happening like lights going out in the spreading darkness.
As I listen this morning, I am filled with hope, joy and love for the Traditional Latin Mass. Once again, it becomes more obvious that modernism is truly a heresy and an evil.
God bless you, Dr. K.
When will we stop getting two emails with the same subject? /j, really; I know such things take time. I hope you and your family have a blessed and peaceful Advent.
Hi Marc,
If you are already signed up on Pelican, there's no need for you to remain signed up at this Substack, as I will not be publishing anything here that is not also publish (in full) at Pelican. Have I misunderstood your question?
I realised as I pushed 'send' that probably I ought to go to Substack to stop T&S there. Very much disapprove of 'the machines' but the fact is, I guess, that I expect them to relieve my laziness a bit too frequently. :-)
No worries, I realize it takes some extra steps and I'm grateful for everyone who's been willing to take a chance with Pelican+! I think it has been and will be richly rewarded.